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Post by ejones on Aug 25, 2011 17:50:35 GMT -5
AND TO PROVE MY POINT #2: Why wasn't the owner/commish watch-dog out when the #20 scoring WR/#89 overall scorer was traded for a 4th rd pick?  Welker was given up for a 2nd year player that is currently 6th on the depth chart. Yep point is since welker is getting old and losing a step(did I miss something) is production is gonna diminish to this point? Yet this deal is again FAR WORSE (again look at the numbers before you reply) then the deal I had reversed; and no one cares then? As commish you can't pick and choose what trades YOU DEEM lopsided (especially without looking into stats/team needs and asking owner why they made the trade). All must be evaluated on the same level and then those I pointed out should also be reversed. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 17:55:21 GMT -5
I have to say that I kind of agree with the Redskins here. I am the commissioner in a long standing league (14 years), and we only reverse trades if their is collusion involved. That said, we tend to scrutinize deals more towards the middle/end of the season that involve bad teams and good teams.
I dont think there was collusion here. I say that a trade is a trade is a trade, it is not up to me as commissioner to judge other owners' values of players. I would have let the trade stand, even though I think it is totally lopsided.
Also, I think that the Brandon Lloyd trade is worse than this one. And, as I stated earlier, I thought the Welker deal was bad too.
Anyway, just my .02
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Post by Browns on Aug 25, 2011 18:15:36 GMT -5
I have to say that I kind of agree with the Redskins here. I am the commissioner in a long standing league (14 years), and we only reverse trades if their is collusion involved. That said, we tend to scrutinize deals more towards the middle/end of the season that involve bad teams and good teams. I dont think there was collusion here. I say that a trade is a trade is a trade, it is not up to me as commissioner to judge other owners' values of players. I would have let the trade stand, even though I think it is totally lopsided. Also, I think that the Brandon Lloyd trade is worse than this one. And, as I stated earlier, I thought the Welker deal was bad too. Anyway, just my .02 Collusion is impossible to prove unless one of the owners admits it. The fact that the Redskins brought the Broncos into the league makes this look real suspicious. Maybe that's unfair but that's realty. |
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Post by Browns on Aug 25, 2011 18:22:47 GMT -5
AND TO PROVE MY POINT #2: Why wasn't the owner/commish watch-dog out when the #20 scoring WR/#89 overall scorer was traded for a 4th rd pick? Welker was given up for a 2nd year player that is currently 6th on the depth chart. Yep point is since welker is getting old and losing a step(did I miss something) is production is gonna diminish to this point? Yet this deal is again FAR WORSE (again look at the numbers before you reply) then the deal I had reversed; and no one cares then?As commish you can't pick and choose what trades YOU DEEM lopsided (especially without looking into stats/team needs and asking owner why they made the trade). All must be evaluated on the same level and then those I pointed out should also be reversed. No it's not. I personally wouldn't have traded Welker for that but with the 4th round pick the Browns got an opportunity to draft a young talent someone to help him in the future. 4th rounders are worth alot in this league. Again I wouldn't have traded Lloyd or Welker for that but it's not terrible. You seemed focused on past numbers but past numbers don't mean a thing. Had you traded a RB prospect for Rodgers that's one thing but Jones is no prospect. He's a 33 year old RB who's had a nice career but everyone knows that running backs fall off dramatically when they hit that magic number of 30. Jones is 3 years past that. Once RB's lose even half a step it's over for them. Jones is in the twilight of his career so unloading a top 5 QB for him makes little sense. I noticed you just drafted Ricky Williams in the 7th round and his situation is almost the same as Jones. A 30 something back who's coming off some nice seasons. Both are not the secondary RB on their respective teams. Williams was available in the 7th round in a 32 team league...that should put some perspective on the value of older RB's. |
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Post by jrobinson on Aug 25, 2011 18:26:00 GMT -5
Wow. Ok for the new guy well those thinking this was really lopsided need to look at what I started with and what I got hit with. Lendale White cut! Ryan Williams out for season. Tried to trade with raiders for Knowshon but got no response. Felt for me best deal was to trade TQB and get a decent RB and ok TQB replacement where the points from last year almost add up evenly. Then jiggle two round 7 picks for rookies and hope for starter injuries for more points.
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Post by Chargers on Aug 25, 2011 18:57:44 GMT -5
Wow. Ok for the new guy well those thinking this was really lopsided need to look at what I started with and what I got hit with. Lendale White cut! Ryan Williams out for season. Tried to trade with raiders for Knowshon but got no response. Felt for me best deal was to trade TQB and get a decent RB and ok TQB replacement where the points from last year almost add up evenly. Then jiggle two round 7 picks for rookies and hope for starter injuries for more points. I understand the rationale behind making a trade in your situation. You had some injuries and tried to make up for it. That's great. What you probably should have done was make it known that Aaron Rodgers is available and I can guarantee you that you would have been offered a LOT more than Henne, T. Jones, and a late round upgrade. As to the validity of the trade itself, let's go ahead and look at the numbers from last year. Yes, both teams traded away 359 points, but one team gave up the #3 scoring player and the other gave up the #96 and the #262 scoring player. Also, even if Rodgers, Henne, and Jones scored exactly the same this year as last, you would have to split those 359 points over two starting spots (QB and RB) instead of just one. Aside from that, Jones is 33 years old and will almost certainly have a reduced role and there's no guarantee that Henne will even keep the starting job all season, so there's no way he is anywhere near being in the same league as Rodgers. Best thing you could do to help your team right now, imo, is to put Rodgers on the trade market and let it be known that you are looking for a decent-to-good QB and a starting caliber RB. In fact, I would probably ask for even more than that due to the fact that Rodgers is one of the top five players in the game and also the fact that there are a TON of Packers fans in this league.  |
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Post by ejones on Aug 25, 2011 20:32:13 GMT -5
The statemen'st below is more reason why commish CANT use personal judgment when ruling to reverse a trdae:
1: Aside from that, Jones is 33 years old and will almost certainly have a reduced role and there's no guarantee that Henne will even keep the starting job all season, so there's no way he is anywhere near being in the same league as Rodgers.
1a: Jones still is healthy, in shape and playing to try and get another payday of some sort. This isn't a Henne vs Rodgers on who is better. This is Packers TMQB vs Dolphins TMQB. Through it all out. What if rodgers gets hurt ala brady 2 seasons ok? What if henne gets hurt, what is the dolphins coax Farve out of retirment.
2: I understand the rationale behind making a trade in your situation. You had some injuries and tried to make up for it. That's great. What you probably should have done was make it known that Aaron Rodgers is available and I can guarantee you that you would have been offered a LOT more than Henne, T. Jones, and a late round upgrade.
2a: See you stated you understand the rationale behind the trade, yet then you put your PERSONAL feelings into it saying he should manage his team another way. The bronco's owner sent a trade offer that went unacknowledged; he took a offer HE (the team owner) liked and worked for him. You can't guarantee he would gotten any other offer nor should (again) you put personal feelings into this .
THOSE ARE ALL UNKNOWNS THAT SHOULDN'T WIEGH INTO THIS AT ALL. No one thought manning would be in trouble to miss a game and no look at what is happening
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Post by ejones on Aug 25, 2011 20:33:48 GMT -5
And to the lions I drafted Williams due to the fact he is 2nd behind rice and in line to get the goal line carries. A risk I wanted to take especially at that slot
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Post by Chargers on Aug 25, 2011 21:20:20 GMT -5
The statement below is more reason why commish CANT use personal judgment when ruling to reverse a trdae: Aside from that, Jones is 33 years old and will almost certainly have a reduced role and there's no guarantee that Henne will even keep the starting job all season, so there's no way he is anywhere near being in the same league as Rodgers. Jones still is healthy, in shape and playing to try and get another payday of some sort. This isn't a Henne vs Rodgers on who is better. This is Packers TMQB vs Dolphins TMQB. Through it all out. What if rodgers gets hurt ala brady 2 seasons ok? What if henne gets hurt, what is the dolphins coax Farve out of retirment. THOSE ARE ALL UNKNOWNS THAT SHOULDN'T WIEGH INTO THIS AT ALL. No one thought manning would be in trouble to miss a game and no look at what is happening So it looks like the ultimate question is " Can a trade only be reversed if collusion is involved or can it be reversed if it is deemed to be extremely lopsided?" Here's what the league rules have to say on the matter. Trades may be offered and accepted by team owners. All available commissioners must review the deal. A majority, or three out of the four commissioners, must reject in order for the trade to be rejected. If the commissioners feel that a trade is too lopsided they may ask the trade partners to renegotiate the deal. If the deal can't be renegotiated to the satisfaction of the trade participants, or to the satisfaction of the commissioners, the deal may be rejected. If the commissioners feel that there has been collusion between owners, a deal may be rejected. Proof of collusion will not have to be offered by the commissioners. Trades involving commissioners will be examined and approved by the commissioners not involved in the deal. A majority of the non-interested parties must reject the deal for it to be rejected.So, as one of the co-commissioners, I am asking you and the Broncos to renegotiate your trade in order to make it more balanced, or at least less lopsided. Since the original trade was overturned, it is obvious that I am not alone in my opinion. Again, I understand you being upset, but it is the job of the commishes to protect the integrity of the league. I am not questioning your integrity at all. In fact, I don't think there was any collusion. But I DO feel that allowing the previous trade was not in the best interest of the league. My reason for overturning the trade was based on the underlined portion of the rule referenced above. |
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Post by ejones on Aug 25, 2011 21:25:33 GMT -5
Ok so then I ask why werent the other trades I mentioned looked at in the same ways as this trade? If that happened/happens then they should also be overturned as being that lopsided
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Post by Chargers on Aug 25, 2011 21:51:17 GMT -5
Ok so then I ask why werent the other trades I mentioned looked at in the same ways as this trade? If that happened/happens then they should also be overturned as being that lopsided Fair question. Let's look at the trades. Remember, I can only give you my opinions. Brandon Lloyd for the 4.21 and 4.28Lloyd had a great year in the Broncos pass-happy McDaniels offense. Now he is in a John Fox offense. Big offensive philosophical change there. Plus, Lloyd has only had one big year in a nine year career that has been mostly nondescript. Also, don't forget he's 30 years old now too. I do think that two 4th may not have been quite enough, but I don't see this trade as overtly lopsided. Wes Welker for the 4.08I would say Welker and Lloyd are roughly at the same level. Yes, I know that Lloyd WAY outscored Welker last year, but I am looking at their 2011 situation. I think you could also make the case that the 4.08 is roughly equal to the 4.21 and 4.28. Again, I don't see anything overtly lopsided here. I think that the main issue that you (and possibly the Bucs) are disagreeing with is the commishes ability to revoke a trade that is viewed as lopsided. However, according to the current rules, that is permissible. If you wish to propose a rule change for 2012, you may do so during the month of February when all rule changes are discussed. Remember that each owner is only allowed one rule-change proposal per year. One word of caution. If the commissioners' ability to revoke lopsided trades is removed, then it would be quite easily for some teams to run their team into the ground. At least under the current status, there is a "safety net" of several people that can try to prevent this from happening. Are we infallable? No. But we are doing the best that we can. |
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Post by Chargers on Aug 25, 2011 22:00:13 GMT -5
In other news, I don't think we've EVER had this many "expired timers", or just plain "long waits"! I know it's as frustrating to many of you as it is to me.
I implore you all - PLEASE predraft when you can! Especially if your pick is coming up and you know you won't be able to check in for awhile.
For those of you who are predrafting, thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 23:37:49 GMT -5
I think the commissioners are doing a great job. I was going to say that under the league rules, the rejection is perfectly legit. I commend you for doing what you think is right for the integrity of the league.
I just thought that the Lloyd trade was bad. I think you need to take personal opinion out of the equation. Just because you think that Lloyd wont have as good of a season because he is in a john Fox offense doesnt mean that the trade is more acceptable.
Look at what the Rams gave up when they traded Anquan Boldin and Marques Colston. I dont remember the exact trade, but he gave up both of those guys for a high draft pick from what I remember. Lloyd is in those guys realm. I just thought it was a bad trade. Late picks in the 4th arent enough in my opinion.
Anyway, good luck to all. I have to say the Chargers look STACKED.
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Post by ejones on Aug 26, 2011 6:03:29 GMT -5
I appreciate you actually taking the time to respond Chargers, but previously you told me this in response to my trade:
As to the validity of the trade itself, let's go ahead and look at the numbers from last year.
Yet you COMPLETELY throw out the numbers when you look at the trades I mentioned. That is the biggest issue I am having with this whole situation. The same personal judgment standards my trade was over turned for, are not being used across the board.
YET ALSO; players get bashed for being over 30 and still producing great stats. So the career of thomas jones was washed out regardless of his last couple years and based just on last year. Then Your judgment of Lloyd discredits is last year, takes into account his entire career then personal judgment is brought into the fold with well this is a fox offense now? Steve Smith had SOLID numbers when there was a good wr lined up on the other side in the FOX/Panther offense. Only in the last couple seasons when the qb play was in shambles, and Smith had no one on the other side did his numbers slip.
Now Fox has Orton, and Lloyd has other wr's that defense have to account for. So again personal feelings taken out and if you look at just this then that is why the trade is so lopsided. Not to mention looking at who was selected how is the #2 wr #10 overall (again your words lets look at numbers of last year as you said in mine) worth a flyer wr & a rb that out for the year. How is that keeping things competitive for the entire league?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2011 10:02:04 GMT -5
Redskins: C'mon man! Let it go!
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